Today my special guest is Dr. Mary Kaspar, who has recently released the groundbreaking book The Popular Girls: Helping Your Daughter with Adolescent Power Struggles – 7 Steps for Flourishing.
What Dr. Kaspar shares in this episode was fascinating to me because she deconstructs popularity and its links to our girls/well-being and how the type of popularity that most girls crave is not the type that will improve their lives.
She explains how gaining power and status (which she calls relational aggression) is a big part of popularity and the behaviors that we need to be on the lookout for. She also shares the two different kinds of popularity, what’s happening in the teen brain to cause them to crave popularity and how to help our daughters navigate friendships, what to do when they are left out and how to recognize if your daughter is the mean girl and so much more!
Let’s dive in!
What You Will Learn:
- What is relational aggression?
- Why does it seem like the “mean girls” successfully gain power among peers?
- What are the two different kinds of popularity?
- What is happening in our teen’s brains that make them crave popularity and the urge for increased status?
- How to help our daughters navigate popularity. Dr. Kaspar has seven roadmaps.
- Recognizing signs of relational aggression.
- Knowing how to distinguish the difference between what is control in relationships and what is connection.
- How do you know if your daughter is a mean girl? What are the signs to look for?
- Understanding the sophisticated social behaviors involved in achieving high social status.
- What parents can do that will help their teens view the world differently regarding the treatment of others.
- How to help your daughter if she’s being left out.
Where to find Dr. Kaspar:
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And here is the episode typed out!
Welcome to the Moms of Tweens and Teens Podcast. If some days you doubt yourself and don’t know what you’re doing. If you’ve ugly cried alone in your bedroom because you felt like you were failing. Well, I just want to let you know you are not alone, and you have come to the right place.
Raising tweens and teens in today’s world is not easy. And I’m on a mission to equip you to love well and to raise emotionally healthy, happy tweens and teens that thrive.
I believe that moms are heroes, and we have the power to transform our families and impact future generations. If you are looking for answers, encouragement, and becoming more of the mom and the woman that you want to be, welcome. I am Sheryl Gould. And I am so glad that you’re here.
SHERYL: Welcome, Dr. Kaspar, to the Moms of Tweens and Teens Podcast. I’m so happy to have you on.
DR. KASPAR: Hi, Sheryl. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
SHERYL: Oh, you’re so welcome. We’ve been having such a good conversation. I love your book. You just recently came out with this book, and it’s called The Popular Girls, Helping Your Daughter With Adolescent Power Struggles: Seven Steps for Flourishing.
We need this book. Oh, my goodness, I knew we were talking, and moms always reach out to me with their girls and struggling with friendships. I just love all that you share in this book, and you take such a deep, different angle where you talk a lot about development. We’re going to jump into all that. But I’m going to step aside and let you start by just sharing what led you to write the book.
DR. KASPAR: Okay, so I’m one of seven siblings. I was actually born in Chicago but moved to Australia. I love Americans. I’m one of you guys at heart. And I love Australia too. Don’t get me wrong. We’re very similar in so many ways. We’re great mates.
I moved to Australia when I was very young, grew up in a regional area, and ended up being one of seven siblings. I’m the second eldest. I married quite young. I met my husband, actually, when I was 15 years old. And we’ve now been together for over 30 years.
And as both of us are young parents, we have three daughters. And we were very involved in our daughter’s lives. And, then, our young adults and gorgeous young women in their own right.
While I was raising the girls, I was also completing a doctorate in clinical psychology. And one of my interest areas was adolescents and girls in particular. And as soon as I finished university, I went into running a private practice. And as part of that practice, I ran group programs for teens. I still do that a little bit online and focus on supporting really good mental health and relationships.
It was an accumulation of all of those experiences over many years things that I had experienced, as an adolescent, myself, seeing some of the things that my daughters had experienced in friendships, and really listening to the girls that were in my practice, that led me to write The Popular Girls, because particularly the girls in my practice, were telling me that unless I understood popularity, or unless I understood power, the strategies that I was talking to them about what didn’t make as much sense, because the rules changed, depending on how popular somebody was, or what they’re referring to is, is how powerful they are or how socially dominant they are.
So that was really interesting for me, and I just saw that there may have been a little bit of a gap in the literature around what that means and how to deal with that. So that sort of led to led to all of this.
SHERYL: Wow, that’s what they were saying. Of all the things they could say is how you needed to understand how friendships were impacting them. Do I understand correctly? Or it would be very difficult to really understand that. Is that correct?
DR. KASPAR: The programs that I was running with teens involved teaching them evidence-based cognitive behavioral skills, such as problem-solving skills, assertive communication, or thought-balancing skills. And when I was talking to them about these strategies, some of the things that they were saying to me was that strategy will work in this situation with this person, but not with this person because they’re part of the popular group, or doing that for the popular group won’t work. So it really started to illustrate that there are different concepts when it comes to relationships and that not all relationships are equal. That power within the peer group can really change how people behave and how they are influenced.
SHERYL: Wow. Yeah, I look back to the friendships I had, especially in middle school. Middle School is really tough. And how that has played a role in how I feel even as an adult in friendships with women. It really is an important part of development. And you talk in the book a lot about what’s going on developmentally, what we need to understand as parents, so can you speak to that? Because it’s such a good point.
DR. KASPAR: Yeah. So friendships and relationships have a massive impact on us as human beings, not just during adolescence but throughout our whole life. And some of the learnings that we have during adolescence can really affect how we view and how we interact with other people.
So adolescence seems to be the pivotal point. It’s this developmental stage where we know that the teenage years or adolescent years are actually a period of vulnerability. And the way that we know, that is from surveys, that adolescence is a vulnerable time for loneliness, which can sound really bizarre or really odd.
Because when you see young people, they’re embedded in social structures, they’re going to school, they’re playing sports, they’re doing extracurricular activities, they always seem to be surrounded by young people, other young people, and peers, and they’re going to parties, and they’re doing things. So how is it possible that they are one of the highest developmental stages that are at risk for loneliness at the highest levels?
And it’s about realizing that loneliness is actually a subjective experience. It’s not about how many people you’re surrounded by. Loneliness is also related to physical and mental health problems. So the lonelier you are, the more that impacts many facets of who you are, both physically and mentally.
And adolescence is also the most vulnerable period of time for the development of mental health problems. So the Australian Bureau of Statistics released recent survey results showing that 39.6% of young people over the 2020-2021 period had experienced a mental health disorder.
I don’t know how that would compare to the US. But I do understand that it’s a global issue in some ways. And it’s not just about COVID. So psychologists have been talking about loneliness as being a health crisis before COVID. But it was exacerbated during COVID. So so, our young people are struggling, I think that’s fair to say, and friendships and relationships and connections underneath some of those struggles.
So what parents need to understand is that we really do need to be taking care of young people in this area or paying attention to this area. And related to that, is that another thing that’s happening during adolescence is that there is uneven brain development.
So we have quite significant things happening in the adolescent brain. Some of those things are the limbic system and the amygdala, so the back of the brain grows before the prefrontal cortex. And in that area during adolescence, these kinds of regions of the brain are supercharged with brain receptors for oxytocin, which drives social connection.
You see young people always wanting to be with peers and wanting to be socially connected and dopamine, which makes us feel good. But part of that is that there are also urges to seek status that come with that. And these urges for status can sometimes override the brain’s need for connection.
And so when we’re talking about this developmental period and the absolute importance of connection, status-seeking can be about moving young people in maybe the wrong direction for what they really need. So it’s about a craving, that kind of desire, and that kind of craving, moving away from what they really need. And that’s also something for parents to understand. This is a developmental period where the brain is undergoing these really big changes.
SHERYL: When we’re operating more of the back of the brain, the amygdala part of the brain, and we’re more impulsive at that age, so we don’t have the brakes and steering. So then you have that wanting that power. Is that because you have the autonomy, the fight for independence?
I’m so curious about why it’s about power. Is it that positive power and control at that age that you’re starting to get in touch with, “wow, I can really impact people?” Is it that they want to really matter? What drives that need, that cruelty, and aggression?
DR. KASPAR: Well, I think you’re absolutely right; when you mentioned autonomy, it’s about that. I think that historically, and even now, it’s a time when adolescents are making their own way in the world. And they’re meant to be separated from their parents. And learning about the world and exploring, and then they’re connecting more with their peers.
So it’s that movement away from the family that’s normal and healthy. And that ties in with the concept of interdependence, where we still need those connections with family, but they look quite different. They involve the young person making more decisions.
In my book, I talk about it being like flying lessons, that they still need that safe base to come back to, to refuel, and to get maintenance and repairs. But they’re really becoming more autonomous. I think brain changes are really a healthy part of doing that. But I also think that there’s this component to it that may be influenced by the real sort of hyper-individualism that we have in our society, and that’s fueled by social media, that puts the emphasis on status, being a winner that perhaps some people are better than, than other people.
I think that’s also playing into what we’re seeing happen with our young people more and more, but you are right that status-seeking in that power is often related to relational aggression. And that’s because relational aggression works. It actually does increase a young person’s status if it’s done in the right way. So yeah, it’s crazy.
SHERYL: I’ve always wondered about how that works. Like, why is everybody following her? I remember thinking that it seemed to work. And why is that? You talk about what we need to understand about aggression. Do you call it aggression? Or how do you call it in the book?
DR. KASPAR: So relational aggression can also be referred to as social cruelty. It’s a form of coercive behavior, which is aggressive behavior. So status seems to work when it’s combined with a high level of coercive behaviors or aggressive behaviors relative to the peer group, at the same time as really high levels of pro-social behaviors.
So to gain status, it can often be about people that look attractive. So physical attractiveness can increase status. High levels of pro-social behaviors can increase status, so that means lots of being nice. And, being quite charming, being really socially astute. And that’s a concept that I think that sometimes we think about people either being mean or nice, but to understand status, popularity, and how you gain power. It’s often the combination of those two techniques together.
SHERYL: Those are the two different kinds of popularity that you talked about.
DR. KASPAR: So there are two different kinds of popularity, and one is referred to as likable popularity, which is really about being liked. When people are around you, they feel valued, and they feel safe. And they feel included, and you make them feel good about themselves.
Whereas status popularity is more about being influential, widely known, and really visible. So it’s a little bit different. And there’s not that much overlap between the two top kinds of popularity. But status popularity is the kind of popularity that is most associated with power. And the particular kind of coercive behaviors that happen in the realm of relational aggression, because when you exclude somebody, you create an elite or special group of the included.
SHERYL: So they’re locked out. And that gets you status.
DR. KASPAR: Yes.
SHERYL: I want to quote you because I thought this was really interesting to me. You said, “the top of the type of popularity that most girls crave is not the type that will improve their lives.” And that is because so much of your book is how we help our girls navigate these waters. And so speak to that the top, the type of popularity that they crave is not the type that’s going to improve their lives.
DR. KASPAR: So, with the brain changes and the urges for status, the kind of popularity that most young people want is status popularity. They want to be the person at the top. But what the research shows is that it often involves a focus on control. And that is where the combination of coercive and pro-social behaviors together coming up is like a form of manipulation, or always focusing on having that kind of popularity.
And that focus on control moves away from a connection. And it is associated with higher levels of depression, anxiety, addictions, and problems in future relationships. Because if that becomes your template for interacting with people, it is very difficult just to switch it off when you finish high school.
It’s fundamentally a very different mindset about what relationships are or what relationships look like. So whereas likable popularity is associated with being in relationships that are really healthy and where people are really valued, and people enjoy spending time with them,
SHERYL: What do you recommend? Because you give seven roadmaps in the book to help guide our girls toward healthy relationships. Can you speak to some of those things? Where can we help our daughters?
DR. KASPAR: So one of the first things is understanding how status and how power can influence the peer group. And noticing when relational aggression is happening. So there’d be two different things here. So I focus first of all on relational aggression. And then, I’ll focus on the seven steps, which is a holistic kind of approach.
So as a parent, understand that status is something that is desired in the adolescent years for a number of reasons because of the brain changes, but also because young people are given messages about being better, and sometimes they get confused about what that looks like in relationships. So for an adult or a parent to understand what relational aggression is, I think it is really important so that they can see it when it’s happening. So knowing what to look for.
So relational aggression is a form of hidden or indirect aggression where someone is harmed through damage to their social relationships or their status within the group or their inclusion. And it’s the goal of relational aggression can really be to control the social rewards.
So remember, it’s really important for parents to know the difference between what is control in relationships and what is connection. So relational aggression can control the social rewards within the group, and it can increase status. So and these behaviors may involve such things as ignoring or turning your back on somebody, making negative facial expressions, and even very small nonverbal behaviors that are just belittling to another person or gossiping and spreading rumors.
And that can be done in such a socially sophisticated way that you’re often unaware of it. I give some vignettes or examples in my book where I talk about the parents who are actually quite pleased to hear this gossip about drug use at the party. But it was quite effective in excluding the girls that had been gossiped about as being the ones that were using drugs, and it didn’t actually really reflect what was really happening.
So it can be a socially sophisticated way of making sure that somebody’s on the outer of pushing them out. So setting up situations where you’re purposefully excluding or leaving out of here from a social event, playing practical group jokes on them, or making fun of somebody because it’s not fun for the person. It’s actually not funny, right?
But making fun of someone just refusing to sit near them or controlling how the group perceives them. And that can happen when there’s a friendship problem, and the young person doesn’t have the skills to communicate properly or problem solve what to do with that friendship problem.
But it can also be part of bullying, where the status hierarchy starts to be separated, and some people, designated to certain parts lower in the status hierarchy consistently through repetitive behaviors that are intended to cause harm and that have that imbalance of power.
So it’s about understanding how relational aggression plays out and that it’s actually a form of control. And it can also play out in more subtle ways. For example, status and power can create uneven push-pull games in relationships. So we’ve probably heard the term frenemy, where somebody who’s a friend, but they’re really not a friend, and so some complained about that as well. Because they can be your friend when things are going well and when it suits them, but then when they’re with the more popular group of peers, I might ignore them or belittle them or put them down.
And what power dynamics does is that it can change a relationship, where a friend, because they so desperately want to be friends with somebody who has more power, we’ll accept mistreatment or not understand what that looks like or not understand that that is not real friendship.
SHERYL: It gets very confusing. I remember my daughter coming home and saying she was hanging out and they were having so much fun. I picked her up, and she was smiling and so happy. And then she went to school, and the girl didn’t want to act like she had had her over. I remember my daughter coming home and saying she had me over, but she didn’t want anybody to know that and broke my heart.
I know a lot of our listeners are like, Yes. Doing a little checkoff of when they can remember these kinds of situations happening, or they may even be happening right now.
How do you know if your daughter is a mean girl? What are the signs to look for? Because a lot of these, a lot of the time, they’re covered up, and you don’t even know if your daughter’s coming home and crying or talking about being left out at the lunch table. But how do you know if they’re actually showing some of these aggressive behaviors?
DR. KASPAR: So, really good question. Because from the outside, it can just look like somebody’s quite happy because they’re going to all the parties. So, how do you know whether that’s healthy, that they’re all healthy friendships or whether they’re engaging in meaningful behavior to sort of get there?
I think that’s a great question. I would recommend that parents be aware of relational aggression because that is the main goal of behavior so that they can think more critically when they’re having conversations with the young person.
So if their daughter’s coming home and saying we don’t like her and giving some kind of reason to justify why they’re excluding someone, I think those conversations do happen. But to gain high status, often there are really sophisticated social behaviors involved here.
So the same girls that can manipulate a peer group are also quite good at manipulating adults. So they might be going home to their parents and giving a version of events. And that’s why it’s important to know what relational aggression is and what the two different kinds of popularity are.
Because then a parent can step right back from what’s being said but understand the overall perspective of how their daughter is talking about people. So is their daughter justifying? Because we all have because there will be quite good justifications as to why somebody shouldn’t be left out, or somebody should be gossiped about, or why you should make fun of somebody because they’re different from the group. They deserve it.
So sometimes there’s a little bit of victim blaming that goes on when people exclude their peers or mistreat their peers. And that’s actually one of the errors in thinking. So we refer to it as cognitive distortions, which really is about how you change your thinking, and there are whole mindsets around how we can justify mistreating people.
And one of the most common in bullying is that we do victim blaming. So I think, first of all, for parents to be aware of, what are the behaviors that are go-to behaviors, and regardless of what the young person is telling them at home, being able to have the adult brain use the full frontal lobes and prefrontal cortex and understand it a little bit differently.
What is the function of this, and is somebody actually being mistreated, and are there just justifications around it? So that’s, that’s one of the first things and a sort of a perspective that I encourage parents to think about, is I use the example of the staircase and the field.
So underlying, the two different kinds of popularity seem to be fundamental differences in the way that relationships are viewed. And likable popularity, or likability, involves walking alongside others. So imagine a large, flat green field stretching out before you. And there’s lots of space for everyone. So many different people are walking in the area, there are people to your left or to the right, and some are moving forward, and some are moving behind them and in front of them.
And the distance covered in the walking speed differs between people. The people are not the same. But they’re considered equal on their journey and walk together as companions. So really getting that picture of what it is because what I’m really saying is that there’s enough room for everybody. That’s the mindset behind it.
Now compare that to what I think of as being status popularity, which is viewing others in competition for scarce resources. So this could be conceptualized as being on the stairs. So imagine there’s a long flight of stairs reaching another level above you. And people are standing on every level of the stairs, some people are higher on the stairs, and some people are lower. So that’s the status hierarchy.
And only a fixed number of people can fit on any one level. So to get to make your way up the stairs, you need to find a way of changing positions with someone above you. And at the same time, you need to make sure that someone below you can’t pull you down and take your place.
So when you’re talking with your young people, that underlying philosophy can give you like a North Star that you’re moving towards. So if they’re talking about leaving somebody out, and of course, you can’t be best friends with everybody, and you can’t invite everybody to everything. But you can understand the underlying mindset behind that being: is this person your equal? Do you value them even though they might be different, even though they might do things that you don’t agree with, even though they might not fit the cultural norm, or they might act too young or too old for their age, or they might have quit?
So they might look different or have a disability, or not have good social skills, are they still fundamentally your equal? Because how you treat people in that mindset is completely different from how you treat people when you’re saying they’re on a different level of the stairs to me, and I’m keeping them there. And these are the reasons why I’m keeping them there. So when you actually get that, your gut will start to tell you, you’ll start to get a feeling around how your young person views people, and then that gives you a really great opportunity to start having conversations about fundamentally valuing diversity and people and the relationships are based not on manipulation or control or being elite or better than other people. That’s not what human beings and relationships are about.
SHERYL: Gosh, that’s so powerful, that visual of the fields and is on the stairs and people beneath you. I just love that, and I think that our adolescents can relate to that picture. Thinking of it that way, am I considering myself better than other people?
I’m thinking about what we are modeling. Do you talk about that in the book? Also, what are some things we need to stay away from saying? I guess we really need to investigate our own hearts and this whole thing and look at our own hearts and how we view people. And what message is that sending to our kids, as well? What are some things that we do that impact our kids? Are there things that we can do that will help our kids view the world differently with people?
DR. KASPAR: Yes, yes, absolutely. And you just said some incredibly wise and really moving things. Sheryl, I think that was really important. What you just said is looking into our own hearts and being guided by that.
I think that we can challenge our family values or norms like we can take stock of what’s happening in our own family, do we make comments about other people or that we’re better than other people in some way, rather than thinking about them as being equal, but different.
So we can do that. We can also challenge some of what social media is telling us because, in some ways, the top of the status hierarchy is the super PR and the celebrities that we see on social media. And so we can challenge that and have some thinking around that because a lot of what’s happening is that social power has been used to exploit our young people to buy more things to fit the cultural norm more.
So we can start to challenge that. We also can really separate with our young people the concept of who they are from what they do. Because I think that sometimes we may be praising external markers of success, which might be grades or how much money somebody earns, what they look like, their physical appearance, or what that external marker is. The over-focus on that, I think, really confuses young people about what success in a relationship looks like, so maybe success is not hanging around a predefined kind of group of elite people, but maybe social success is actually having that other perspective and being able to value and get along with a range of people.
But to do that, as well, I think that we need to be directing young people. We’re talking about the field and the stairs. I also refer to that as being like vertical relationships, you know, which is the stairs versus horizontal relationships. And so if we keep in our relationships with our young people, keep redirecting them back towards horizontal, which is that their worth cannot be changed by external markers and no human’s worth can be. And that’s just non-negotiable.
And so in the seven steps, all the general evidence base, they have massive literature behind them that we know that these strategies work for well being with young people, but it’s also applying them in ways that keep focusing on horizontal relationships.
So some of the seven steps for flourishing involve things like self-compassion. And that’s because we all make mistakes, and none of us are perfect. So celebrating imperfections but being compassionate towards ourselves around those imperfections is incredibly important. Because when we are able to be compassionate with ourselves to have self-compassion, we are then able, perhaps better, to also have compassion for others. Because sometimes, needing to be better than others is also tied up in the shame of not being good enough.
Whereas when we accept our common humanity, which is an important part of self-compassion, that just brings us back to being similar, being connected, being connected with ourselves, and then being able to better connect with others. So also develop a balanced perspective about difficult times and values, develop gratitude, bring positivity and fun into our young people’s lives, and understand their unique character strengths, or their traits and signature strengths, because every single human being has strengths has character strengths.
And that doesn’t make us better or worse than other people. It makes us different. So really celebrating and acknowledging and using our own strengths, and having the capacity to see that in other people as well. But even though there might not be the same strength, they’re just as equally valuable. And also an understanding and an experience of interconnectedness with others because there’s so much that’s about that individualistic focus of getting ahead. I think that that can be really disconnecting. So bringing back the connection, and also connecting with values and life purpose and meaning, so that they’re the seven steps that I really focus on.
SHERYL: Yeah, and you give so many examples and stories that you share in the book that are very helpful. Where can parents read it and have some discussion? You have places in the book where you have discussions, and I find that very, very helpful as well. How do we do this? How do we foster these things?
I’m looking at step seven, built interconnectedness, and you give such great things that we can do. I think it’s really important because some of these things were like, well, how do we do that? And you talked about courage, humanity, justice, and so many building those strengths in our kids and how to do that. Very helpful, and it’s so important.
And what are you hoping that this book is going to do? What is your mission or your desire for this book? How do you want it to impact young people?
DR. KASPAR: I suppose I want to challenge some of the ways that we think about success. Because of research, you’re saying that perhaps we need to move in a different direction. I think that we’ve got the right intentions, but I think the right direction is about connection. It’s not about control.
I’m really wanting people be thinking more about how they can best support young people and that it may not be what we have been sold by society, that maybe it’s time for us to turn to another way.
My hope is that in that way, we will see young people feeling healthier and happier. And those rates of anxiety and depression, improving, authentic connections improving, and that we’re really just moving together towards something a bit bigger and a bit better.
SHERYL: Yeah, I love that vision. I love that vision, and we need it so badly because our kids are struggling and they are lonely, and they are feeling empty and longing for that true connection. We all need that. I want to end with that.
But I have to ask you this question. If you have a daughter that’s coming home, and she’s crying about getting left out – I get messages and emails all the time. How can a parent help? How can a mom help her daughter through that? What do we say?
DR. KASPAR: I don’t know that there’s any magic quick thing that we can say that is going to fix it. I think that it is something a little bit needs to be built over time. And that involves the seven steps that I’ve talked about. And also a secure attachment, something I didn’t talk too much about before.
But what the research shows are incredibly important is a secure attachment between care and parents and adolescents is a massive resilience factor in these situations because young people need to know that they’re worthy and have that sense of safety in relationships, even when that might be happening at school.
So that’s the background stuff. But in the forefront, what can you say in that situation, I think that it would be about reminding young people that sometimes everyone experiences something like this, and it doesn’t reflect their worth.
I would encourage them to really increase their social connections. So look for existing social connections which are healthy and build on that, and branch out for more social connections. So perhaps having social connections outside of school for a period of time. I would keep directing them back towards being the kind of friend that they want to have.
Challenge, if it is the case, that what they’re upset about is that they’re not part of the popular group because there is some research that shows that wanting to be part of that popular group is actually creating distress in young people.
So I know that sort of a long-winded answer because there are so many different ways depending on not only understanding the background of the person that’s coming home and saying that, in general, increasing their sense of worthiness and increasing their connections with other young people in whatever way that healthy connections, in whatever way needs to be.
SHERYL: I think that’s where you were talking about challenging what really makes us worthy and for our kids to be able to really reflect on what’s really meaningful and makes us have worth and value. And I love when you talk about that because I think that’s where it’s important to challenge our kids on what that looks like. And that’s one of the reasons I just think I want to say everyone needs to get their book and read it. Thank you.
DR. KASPAR: That’s so kind of you.
SHERYL: Yeah, so tell everybody where to find you.
DR. KASPAR: I have a website, Dr. Mary Kasper. I have social media, and I’m on Facebook and Instagram. And all online bookstores should be able to purchase a copy of the book if you’re interested. But yeah, I’d love to hear from people.
SHERYL: Your website is thepopulargirls.org. And that’s very easy to remember. I love that thepopulargirls.org. That’s a good one. Easy to remember. So yeah, thank you. This was just very, very helpful. And I know that the work that you’re doing is going to bear fruit. So thank you, Dr. Kaspar.
DR. KASPAR: Oh, I thank you, Sheryl, and thank you for the care you have for teens and the support that you provide for parents. You do an absolutely wonderful job, and I’m grateful to you.